【译制】布鲁斯·芬克：《反理解》AU卷一访谈录

原创 节目访谈人

精神分析与翻译研究

2024-04-06 17:47 山西 “ AU卷一，主要介绍作者芬克对拉康译作的采访以及翻译工作中遇到的一般情况。我们在本次采访中也谈到了翻译的问题，强调了翻译过程中的创造力、乐趣、挫折和妥协。” Podcast介绍： 精神分析治疗中,可能出问题的过程有什么? 根据布鲁斯·芬克(Bruce Fink)的说法,一切都可能出问题。在其2014年出版的《反理解》(Against Understanding)第一卷中,他以拉康理论为框架,认为理解是拉康所说的想象界,常常会导致分析家和分析者都形成固定而死板的假设与投射,而这会阻碍变化,也就是阻碍了精神分析中的疗效。我们很可能都听到过自己或他人说,理解我们为什么做一些伤害人或有破坏性的事情似乎无法阻止我们再次重复做同样的事，总会一次又一次下去。在本卷收录的临床个案、案例研究和理论讨论中,芬克建议,分析家不应该追求理解,而应该努力把无意识中的内容带到言语的层面（bring the unconscious to speech）——帮助分析者把原来位于无意识中的知识、信息、体验和想法给表达出来。这种知识不是通过叙事、洞察或意义建构生成,而是通过口误、含混的表达和混合隐喻，也就是分析者在无意识状态下产生的不合情理与“荒谬”内容（non-sense）。把以前无法诉诸为符号的东西给说出来,就会深深地摇动自我的基础,并促进治疗过程中的变化。

【文字稿】

[00:00.000][Music] [00:00.000]【译制：大魔王的快乐】内容取自：new books network。 [00:05.000]Hello everybody and welcome to new books on psychoanalysis. [00:05.000]大家好，欢迎阅读有关精神分析的新书。 [00:08.400]I'm your host Donna Fishson. [00:08.400]我是你的主持人唐娜·菲什森。 [00:10.000]Today I'm very excited to be talking to Bruce Fink about volume one of his latest book [00:10.000]今天，我很高兴能和布鲁斯·芬克谈论他新书的第一卷。 [00:15.000]Against Understanding, Commentary Cases and Critique in a Lacanian Key. [00:15.000]《反理解 卷一：论拉康理论精要的论与判》。（译注：该名称为译者撰写论文和组织芬克读书会时所称） [00:20.399]It's by Rutledge 2013. [00:20.399]这是部劳特利奇2013年的作品。 [00:23.199]And in about a month or so we will meet again to discuss volume two, so please look out for that. [00:23.199]大约一个月后，我们将再次见面讨论第二卷，所以大家要记得。 [00:29.800]So I'm going to briefly introduce him. [00:29.800]所以我要简单介绍一下他。 [00:32.000]As many of you in the audience probably know, Bruce Fink is a practicing Lacanian psychoanalyst [00:32.000]正如在座的许多人可能知道的那样，布鲁斯·芬克（Bruce Fink）是一位实践取向的拉康派在业精神分析家。 [00:38.200]and analytic supervisor. [00:38.200]也是一位分析督导师。 [00:39.799]He trained in France for seven years and is now a member of the École de la cause for Dianne in Paris. [00:39.799]他在法国接受了七年的培训，现在是巴黎黛安娜事业学院的成员。 [00:46.000]Please don't throw tomatoes at my French. [00:46.000]请不要吐槽我差劲儿的法语水平哈。（嘎嘎嘎的笑） [00:48.799]The Institut Lacan created shortly before his death. [00:48.799]这个学院是拉康在去世前不久创建的。 [00:51.799]Bruce obtained his PhD from the Department of Psychoanalysis at the University of Paris, [00:51.799]而布鲁斯在巴黎大学精神分析系获得博士学位， [00:58.000]in 1898 Saint-Denis. [00:58.000]1898年，在法国的圣但尼。 [01:00.399]He served as professor of psychology from 1993 to 2013 at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh [01:00.399]1993年至2013年，他在匹兹堡杜肯大学担任心理学教授 [01:08.000]and is currently an affiliated member of the Pittsburgh Psychoanalytic Center. [01:08.000]目前是匹兹堡精神分析中心非正式的与会成员。 [01:12.000]Bruce is the author of six other books on Lacan translated in many, many different languages. [01:12.000]布鲁斯是另外六本关于拉康作品的作者，它们被翻译成许多不同的语言。 [01:17.599]Some of my favorites, the Lacanian subject Between Language and Jouissance by Princeton in 1995. [01:17.599]我最喜欢的一本是1995年普林斯顿出版的，《拉康主体：在语言与享乐之间》。 [01:24.400]The First edition of Lacanian Psychoanalysis, a clinical introduction to Lacanian psychoanalysis, theory and technique, [01:24.400]第一版，《拉康派精神分析：就理论与技术面的从业指南》 [01:30.400] Harvard University Press, 97. [01:30.400]由哈佛大学出版社，97年。 [01:34.400]Lacan to the Letter, reading at Écrits closely, Minnesota Press, 2004. [01:34.400]《精读拉康文集》，明尼苏达出版社，2004年。 [01:40.000]And Fundamentals of Psychoanalytic Technique, a Lacanian Approach for Practitioners, [01:40.000]还有《精神分析技术基础：拉康派从业者指南》 [01:44.400]which was published by Norton in 2007. [01:44.400]由诺顿于2007年出版。 [01:47.400]Lacan's works, including a Écrits, the first complete edition in English from 2006, [01:47.400]拉康的作品，包括2006年第一版英文完整版《拉康全集》， [01:54.400]for which he received the 2007 Nonfiction Translation Prize from the French American Foundation [01:54.400]为此，他获得了2007年非小说类翻译奖，由法裔美国人基金会与 [02:00.400]and the Florence Gould Foundation. [02:00.400]弗洛伦斯·古尔德基金会颁发。 [02:02.400]Seminar 20, Encore, on Feminine Sexuality, the Limits of Love and Knowledge, [02:02.400]还有《研讨班20，再来一次！关于女性的性、爱和知识的局限性》 [02:08.400]among others on the Names of the Father, the Triumph of Religion. [02:08.400]其中包括《父之名》、《宗教的胜利》。 [02:13.400]And Seminar 8, Transference, is forthcoming, or maybe it's already, I think it's still forthcoming from Paul. [02:13.400]《研讨班8，转移，即将到来，或者也许已经到达》，我认为保罗仍然即将推出这本书。 [02:19.400]It's still forthcoming. [02:19.400]它应该不久就会面世。 [02:21.400]Okay. And he's also the co-editor of three collections on Lacan's work, published by SUNY Press, [02:21.400]此外他还合编了纽约州立大学出版社三本关于拉康的作品。 [02:27.400]Reading Seminar 11, Reading Seminars 1 and 2, and Reading Seminar 20. [02:27.400]阅读研讨班11，研讨班1和2，研讨班20。 [02:34.400]So in sum, Bruce Fink is the authority on Lacan in the English-speaking world. [02:34.400]总而言之，布鲁斯·芬克可以说是英语世界里阅读、翻译拉康的实力派了。 [02:39.400]And, though we've never spoken before, he's my subject supposed to know. [02:39.400]而且，虽然我们以前从未说过话，但他是我应该知道的人物。 [02:44.400]So Bruce, welcome to the show. [02:44.400]所以布鲁斯，欢迎来到这个节目。 [02:46.400]Thank you, It's nice to be here. [02:46.400]谢谢你，很高兴来到这里。 [02:49.400]So when people ask me how I became interested in Lacan, I tell them about one night in December 2003. [02:49.400]所以当人们问我是如何对拉康感兴趣时，我告诉他们2003年12月的一个晚上。 [02:59.400]I was sick with a bad cold, and I was actually in the midst of dissertation write-up, so therefore wretched. [02:59.400]我得了重感冒，实际上我正在写论文，所以很可怜。 [03:06.400]And I was lying in bed, staring resentfully at a pile of books I was storing for a friend in my tiny New York apartment. [03:06.400]我躺在床上，怨恨地盯着我在纽约小公寓里为朋友存放的一堆书。 [03:12.400]And on top of this pile was your clinical intro to Lacanian psychoanalysis. [03:12.400]在这堆东西之上是你那本对拉康精神分析的临床介绍。 [03:16.400]And I started reading it, and I couldn't put it down. [03:16.400]然后我就开始读它，接着爱不释手了。 [03:19.400]And then I immediately read Lacanian Subject, and then I read Lacan to the letter. [03:19.400]然后我立即阅读了《拉康主体》，还有《拉康逐字解》。 [03:24.400]And then a few books by Zizek, and then I began reading Lacan himself, so translated by you and other people. [03:24.400]然后是齐泽克的几本书，然后我开始阅读拉康本人的作品，譬如由你和其他人翻译的那些。 [03:32.400]So that's my story, okay? [03:32.400]这就是我的经历，（嘎嘎嘎） [03:34.400]That's it. I'm not going to talk about myself. [03:34.400]大概就这样。我可不会谈论我自己哈。 [03:36.400]That's a great story. [03:36.400]想必是一个有趣的故事。 [03:38.400]So what's yours, Bruce? I'm curious. [03:38.400]那么你呢，布鲁斯？我很好奇。 [03:41.400]What first inspired you to study Lacan, and why do you think you became so hooked? [03:41.400]最初是什么激发了你学习拉康的灵感，你认为你为什么会如此着迷？ [03:48.400]Yeah, that's a little bit a couple of separate questions there. [03:48.400]是的，这是几个单独的问题。 [03:55.400]I think I first encountered Lacan's work as he was being lambasted by Deleuze and Guartari in Antietipus. [03:55.400]记得我头一回接触拉康的作品，还是在读德勒兹和瓜塔里在《反俄狄浦斯》一书中强烈批评拉康时接触到的。 [04:07.400]And since they took him to task so thoroughly, I had to see who they were taking to task. [04:07.400]既然他们把人家批评地如此彻底，那我反倒必须看看他们到底针对的是哪个人。 [04:15.400]But of course it was impenetrable to read him directly at that time in English, and I didn't speak French at all. [04:15.400]当然，当时直接用英語来读他是万万难以理解的，再说了我那会儿根本不会说法语。 [04:27.399]And I was lucky enough to be living in Ithaca, New York, and a guy named Richard Klein was giving a course on Lacan and Derrida and Foucault. [04:27.399]我很幸运地住在纽约的伊萨卡， 一个名叫理查德·克莱因的人正在讲一门关于拉康、德里达和福柯的课程。（译者曾与理查德通信，确有此事件。简介：此人为Lacanian Ink的前任副主编，拉康期刊Journal of European Psychoanalysis的前任副主编，也是Freud and the Invention of Jewishness和Lacan in the German-speaking World的学者和文献学与目录编制的研究者） [04:39.399]And so Richard gave me my first introduction to Lacan, and I got hooked on the idea of the subject of the unconscious. [04:39.399]所以理查德给了我第一次接触拉康的机会，此后我迷上了无意识主体这样的理论。 [04:50.399]And I think I also got hooked on the fact that he seemed to be talking about things that intrigued me, but I didn't know what he was saying. [04:50.399]我想我也迷上了这个，他似乎在谈论让我感兴趣的事情，但我不知道他在说什么。 [05:01.399]And I think that kept me going for a very long time. [05:01.399]我认为这让我坚持了很长时间。 [05:04.399]I think I got to a stage, I guess at that point, after having been through a lot of really difficult philosophy and political philosophy, [05:04.399]我想我到了一个阶段，我觉得在经历了很多非常困难的哲学阅读和政治哲学之后， [05:14.399]where the harder it was, the more I liked it for some masochistic reason I got. [05:14.399]越是难，我就越喜欢它，因为我产生有一些受虐狂方面的缘故。 [05:21.399]But of course the fact that he was talking about love and he was talking about subjectivity and the unconscious, all of those were very important to [05:21.399]不过当然，事实上，他在谈论爱，他在谈论主体性和无意识，所有这些都是非常重要的， [00:00.040]me. [00:00.040]对我来说是这样。 [05:32.399]And that certainly got me started and has kept me going for a very long time. [05:32.399]这无疑让我开始阅读和学习，并让我坚持了很长时间。 [05:37.399]I still find a lot of things he says very perplexing, but it always spurs me on to reflect, even if I'm not sure I agree with him or I think maybe he [05:37.399]我仍然觉得他说的很多话很令人困惑，但它总是激励我反思，即使我不确定我是否同意他的观点，或者我认为也许他 [00:00.000]'s frankly wrong. [00:00.000]压根就是乱说一通。 [05:55.399]I always think I always find it so much more rewarding to read his work than many other authors. [05:55.399]我一直认为，我总是觉得阅读他的作品比许多其他作者要更有价值。 [06:05.399]Yeah, sorry. [06:05.399]是的，抱歉打断。 [06:09.399]That's my story. [06:09.399]反正这就是我自己关于拉康的故事。 [06:11.399]No, I have to, I was very quick there. [06:11.399]别介（嘎嘎嘎），我必须得，我就快快问一下。 [06:14.399]I wanted to confess that, okay, so in your book there are several interviews where you answer this question, right? [06:14.399]我想，好吧，在你的书中有几次采访，你回答了这个问题，对吧？ [06:19.399]You say at one point, and you said it in the course of your answering it here, that you were drawn to Lacan's notion of the subject. [06:19.399]你曾经说过，而且你在回答这个问题的过程中也说过，你被拉康关于这个主体的概念所吸引。 [06:29.399]And this really resonated with me as well, his notion of the subject. [06:29.399]这也引起了我的共鸣，譬如他对这个主体的看法。 [06:35.399]And so I guess I was hoping you'd elaborate a little bit on that. [06:35.399]所以我想我希望你能详细说明一下。 [06:38.399]I mean, what was it about his notion of the subject that, you know? [06:38.399]我的意思是，他对这个主体的概念是什么，你知道吗？ [06:45.399]Yeah, I think that would be hard to say right now. [06:45.399]算是吧，我认为现在很难说。 [06:50.399]Initially it grabbed me, but I was coming out of studies of philosophy and even religion, eastern religions, where the question of what is the self, [06:50.399]最初它抓住了我的痛点，不过我是从哲学甚至宗教，还有东方宗教里研究出来的，在那里有关于什么是自我（self）的问题， [07:11.399]what is identity, [07:11.399]什么是身份（认同）， [07:13.399]and some Freud as well, the ego, superego, and it, well, you know, what the hell is this thing that we refer to as ourselves? [07:13.399]还有一些弗洛伊德，比如自我，超我，以及它（或本我），嗯，你知道，我们称之为自己的这个东西到底是什么？ [07:26.399]And like many people in the 70s, I was certainly hearing about Zen and in Hindu, I studied some Hinduism when I was at Cornell, [07:26.399]像70年代的许多人一样，我当然听说过禅宗，在印度教中，我在康奈尔大学学习了一些印度教法， [07:40.399]and Buddhism, and the question of, well, you know, what exactly is this thing that we call ourselves, seemed quite mysterious and opaque. [07:40.399]还有佛教，以及我们自称的这个东西到底是什么的问题，似乎相当神秘，也不透彻。 [07:55.399]And Freud seemed to have an answer that had something to do with the unconscious. [07:55.399]而弗洛伊德似乎有一个与无意识有关的答案。 [07:59.399]And then Lacan had this mysterious phrase, the subject of the unconscious. [07:59.399]然后拉康才有了这个玄妙的说法，叫所谓无意识的主体。（译注：其实这样的构词表达是很有问题的，只是碍于现在人们说得习惯了） [08:05.399]So I think, and yet it was obvious that there wasn't a kind of permanence to it, but it didn't mean, it seemed to me at least, [08:05.399]所以我想，不过很明显哈，它没有一种永久的特征，至少在我看来， [08:15.399]in Lacan's work, that meant there was nothing to it whatsoever and it wasn't somehow absolutely crucial. [08:15.399]但这并不意味着在拉康的著作中就说它没有任何意义，就认为那不是非常关键的东西。 [08:23.399]So it wasn't a sort of notion of perspectivism or a notion of identity in terms of, you know, who I think of myself as like, and so on and so forth. [08:23.399]所以这不是一种多种多元、各有其见的概念，也不是一种身份的概念，你知道，譬如我认为自己像谁，等等。 [08:37.399]There seemed to be something more profound to that. [08:37.399]里面似乎还有更深刻的东西。 [08:40.399]And so I think that was what initially intrigued me. [08:40.399]所以我认为这就是最初吸引我的原因。 [08:45.399]That's a historical answer, I guess. [08:45.399]我想这是一个历史中的答案。 [08:49.399]I'm very sympathetic to that. And you know, actually I was curious about your role as, I mean, you had me hooked on page one in your intro to [08:49.399]我对此非常认同。你知道，实际上我对你的角色很好奇，我的意思是，你在引介拉康派精神分析的第一页就让我着迷。 [09:00.399]but I wanted to know what you think about the resistance, well, maybe you don't think there's a resistance to Lacan in the Anglo-American context, [09:00.399]但我想知道你对阻抗的看法，好吧，也许你认为在英美背景下没有对拉康的阻抗， [09:09.399]but... [09:09.399]但是... [09:11.399]Oh, I certainly do. [09:11.399]哦，我知道你在说什么了。 [09:12.399]Okay, okay. So you agree. [09:12.399]好的 好的。所以你也同意对吧。 [09:14.399]So yeah, I'd like you to speak to that, I guess, and also conversely maybe, do you think, what do you think is the reason for his popularity in, say, [09:14.399]对，是的，我希望你谈谈这一点，我想，反过来，也许，你认为，他受欢迎的原因是什么，比如说， [00:00.040]Argentina, [00:00.040]在阿根廷， [09:23.399]to the point where, you know, there his concepts are part of common parlance and pop culture? [09:23.399]你觉得，他的概念和理论是大众语言和流行文化的一部分吗？ [09:32.399]As I understand it, in Argentina, Klein is also incredibly well known there. [09:32.399]据我了解，在阿根廷，克莱因也非常有名。 [09:41.399]And psychoanalysis in general seems to be very well known there. [09:41.399]总的来说，精神分析似乎在那里很有市场。 [09:47.399]And I would say that at some level, psychoanalysis has had a harder time in the US than in many parts of Latin America. [09:47.399]我想说的是，在某种程度上，精神分析在美国比在拉丁美洲的许多地方都过得更艰难。 [10:02.399]And so it's not just Lacan, I think Lacan, yeah, Lacan is rejected as impenetrable by many American and English speaking clinicians in general, [10:02.399]所以不仅仅是拉康，我认为拉康也一样，没错，拉康被许多美国和英语世界的临床医生们给拒绝了，他们认为难以理解， [10:18.399]more so perhaps than a lot of other, perhaps equally opaque psychoanalyst like Klein and beyond and so on. [10:18.399]也许比许多其他或许同样读不透的精神分析家们要难很多，如克莱因等等。 [10:28.399]But I think there's, first of all, there's the historical ever present rivalry between England and France, [10:28.399]但我认为，首先，英国与对手法国在历史上存在竞争关系， [10:42.399]such that anything that's French should be rejected by somebody, you know, any self-respecting English speaking person. [10:42.399]这样，任何法语的东西都应该被人拒绝，你知道，任何有自尊心、自视为正宗的、讲一口英语的人都会这么做。 [10:50.399]That's perhaps truer, of course, in England than it is in the US. [10:50.399]当然，这在英国可能比在美国更真实。 [10:55.399]There's obviously an adoration of things French by a certain segment of the American population, [10:55.399]显然，一部分美国人对法国的东西很崇拜， [11:03.399]and that's more the intelligentsia and the academic community. [11:03.399]这更多的是指知识分子和学术界。 [11:08.399]And I think that the clinicians are very much not part of that, for the most part, and some of them are. [11:08.399]我认为临床医生在很大程度上不是其中的一部分，其中一些人是那样。 [11:15.399]But many of them consider themselves, and this is probably due to the way psychoanalysis developed in the United States, [11:15.399]但他们中的许多人自认为是这样，这可能是由于精神分析在美国发展 [11:24.399]through medical channels primarily, many American analysts view themselves more as like doctors, like physicians, [11:24.399]的方式是让许多美国分析家主要通过医疗方面的渠道和领域，而认为自己更像医生，像是医务人员， [11:34.399]as clinicians, practitioners, above all, and not their professionals and not necessarily the vulgarist in the humanities. [11:34.399]他们首先是把自己看作临床工作者、分析医师，而不是作为人文学术界的职业人员，也不一定视为一般的从业者。 [11:49.399]And they don't necessarily think of themselves as intellectuals, per se. [11:49.399]他们不一定认为自己原本就是知识分子。 [11:55.399]So there certainly is resistance. [11:55.399]所以这里肯定存在阻力。 [11:59.399]And I think there's a historical piece as well, which is that Lacan's a very difficult writer. [11:59.399]我认为还有一个历史缘故，那就是拉康，一个很刁难人的作者。 [12:10.399]The first translations were very tough to get through, [12:10.399]最开始的译本很难让人理解得通， [12:14.399]and Lacan didn't make it any easier when he came and spoke in the States. [12:14.399]拉康来美国演讲时也并没有让事情变得更容易。 [12:20.399]And so even as a person, I don't think he did much to try to make himself likeable in America. [12:20.399]因此，即使作为他个人，我认为他也没有做太多努力让自己在美国讨谁的喜欢。 [12:35.399]Anyway, I don't know exactly in England if he made many attempts there. [12:35.399]无论如何，我不知道他是否在英国做过多少尝试。 [12:39.399]But likeableness can go a long way, I think, even when your work is very difficult. [12:39.399]但我认为，即使你的工作非常困难，讨人们的喜欢也有很长的路要走。 [12:50.399]It's interesting. Well, we'll come back to the issue, I think, of translation. [12:50.399]很有趣。那好，我想，我们将回到刚刚的翻译问题。 [12:54.399]But I wanted to start to talk about the book more directly and the title and the eponymous first chapter, of course, against understanding. [12:54.399]但我可以直接来谈论这本书，标题和同名的第一章，“反理解”（au）。 [13:04.399]So that's provocative. So why is understanding or meaning-making also and meaning-making not the point of treatment, in your view? [13:04.399]噢很有挑衅的意味啊。那么，在你看来，为什么理解或意义创造，不是治疗的重点呢？ [13:16.399]Because I think that what happens when the emphasis is placed on understanding and meaning-making, [13:16.399]因为我认为，当重点放在理解和意义创造上时，就会导致 [13:25.399]then change gets lost in the sauce, so to speak, that the priority to make something fundamentally new happen, [13:25.399]改变被忽视了，可以说，那种就是在根本上带来新变化的首要任务， [13:35.399]to really radically transform a person gets left by the wayside in a sense where it... [13:35.399]那种真正从根本上改变一个人的需要，在某种意义上被丢到了一边...... [13:52.399]that the focus on understanding becomes a distraction in a way that the clinician becomes so concerned with, [13:52.399]而对理解的关注成为了分心和干扰，成了临床医生赖以关切的方式， [14:05.399]"Have I understood my patient correctly, and can I convey this understanding transparently somehow [14:05.399]“我是否正确理解了我的病人，我能否以某种方式完全传达这种理解 [14:13.399]or without any loss of material of comprehension to the patient?" [14:13.399]或是没有失去用来理解病人的任何材料？” [14:24.399]That there's a loss in the notion of, "Well, what is this understanding supposed to do? [14:24.399]这种情况下还存在一个损失，譬如“嗯，这种理解应该做什么？ [14:30.399]What does understanding for a patient, what does it do for the patient?" [14:30.399]理解对病人有什么影响，对病人有什么作用？” [14:35.399]And first of all, a little context there, I spent 20 years teaching in a department that emphasized understanding. [14:35.399]首先，还得提一嘴小背景，我在一个强调理解的部门教了20年。 [14:47.399]And so I worked with students who were being taught that it was all about meaning and all about understanding. [14:47.399]因此，我与那些被教导说这完全是关于意义和理解的学生一起工作和研究。 [14:55.399]And the question that I would always raise to them in my classes, "Well, what good has it done you to supposedly understand your patient's problem [14:55.399]我总是在课堂上向他们提出问题，“那好，了解病人的问题会对你有什么好处， [15:04.399]and to explain it to them, and what good has it done your patient to supposedly know that a particular problem [15:04.399]向病人解释有什么好处，你的病人知道了一个特定的问题有什么好处， [15:13.399]arose exactly at this moment in time and perhaps for this particular reason was that curative?" [15:13.399]譬如正好发生在这个时刻，又或许正是由于这个特殊的原因，然后人家就被治好了吗？” [15:21.399]And my sense is that most of the time, no, it wasn't. [15:21.399]我的感觉是，大多数时候，不这样，它不是这么回事儿。 [15:25.399]And of course, the other context to it is that perhaps like many other analysts as well, [15:25.399]当然，还有另一个故事，也许像许多其他分析师一样， [15:34.399]I always talk about myself as a mental health provider of last resort, that Lacanian psychoanalysis is such a weird thing to do [15:34.399]我总是说自己是站在最后一道关口的心理健康服务者，拉康派精神分析是一个奇怪的东西。 [15:45.399]that usually people have done three or four different other kinds of therapy or analysis before they come to me. [15:45.399]通常人们在来找我之前已经做了三到四种其他不同的治疗或分析。 [15:51.399]And they often have a whole story about what they've understood about themselves and about their lives. [15:51.399]他们经常有一个完整的故事，关于他们对自己和生活的了解。 [15:56.399]And their complaint is often, "Well, I know all of that perfectly well, but I'm still doing the same things that I was always doing." [15:56.399]他们的抱怨往往是，“当然，我非常了解这一切，但我仍然在做我一直在做的事情。” [16:06.399]So that again seems to go...we could say, "Well, they had the wrong understanding of things," [16:06.399]所以这似乎又会变成...我们可以说成是，“行吧，他们对事物的理解是错误的，” [16:14.399]or we could just say that understanding somehow is not really the key to making something new happen for someone. [16:14.399]或者我们可以看成，理解在某种程度上并不是为人们带来新变化的关键决点。 [16:21.399]So what is the key? Is it producing a certain type of knowledge? [16:21.399]那么什么才紧要呢？它（指精神分析）是否产生了某种类型的知识？ [16:27.399]No, again... [16:27.399]也不是，其实... [16:31.399]A distinction between knowledge and understanding? [16:31.399]是知识和理解之间有一种差别吗？ [16:34.399]I mean, we could at a certain level, because we could talk about unconscious knowledge, and Lacan certainly talks about that at times. [16:34.399]我的意思是，我们可以在某种程度上，因为我们可以谈论无意识的知识，拉康有时当然会谈论这一点。 [16:45.399]But the notion there is that it's a knowledge that's contained in the unconscious, [16:45.399]但那种概念指，知识是一种包含在无意识中的知识，（译注：此处的knowledge可以宽泛理解，包括但不限于知识、内容、信息、思考、想法、念头、事件、关系等等） [16:50.399]which has not been formulated and therefore in conventional terms in any case not understood. [16:50.399]它还尚未制定、尚未成形，因此无论如何都不能为常规术语所理解清楚。 [16:58.399]So we can imagine a knowledge that exists in someone without there being any understanding of it. [16:58.399]因此，我们可以想象一种知识存在于某人身上，却对它没有任何理解。 [17:08.400]And what I would suggest is that we're trying to produce a change in the unconscious. [17:08.400]所以我的建议是，我们正试图在无意识中带去一种改变。 [17:15.400]And even in the knowledge, let's say, somehow written in the unconscious, we're trying to change that, [17:15.400]甚至在知识里面，比方说，以某种方式写在无意识中的知识，我们也在去试图改变， [17:23.400]as opposed to someone's conscious understanding of things. [17:23.400]而与某人对事物在意识领域中的理解相反。 [17:28.400]And the hope then is that a change in the unconscious leads to a change in one's capacity for who we are, [17:28.400]然后，希望在于，无意识的变化带来个人能力的改变，譬如如何认识我们自己是谁的， [17:42.400]what you enjoy, the ways you're able to enjoy, and what you enjoy changes in that process. [17:42.400]譬如你喜欢什么，你赖以享受的方式，你享受的东西在这个过程中会发生什么变化。 [17:53.400]So a bit abstract, but... [17:53.400]所以听上去有点不好理解，不过... [17:56.400]No, not at all. [17:56.400]还行，能懂！ [17:58.400]Yeah. [17:58.400]得。 [18:00.400]So actually, can you relate your point about understanding not really causing change to your... [18:00.400]所以实际上，你能把你关于理解不会真正引起改变的观点与你的...... [18:10.400]I was thinking about your 2007 book on technique, and there you make this case against empathy, [18:10.400]我在想，你那边2007年关于技术的书，你在里面提出了反对共情， [18:17.400]a pretty strong one, and also projective identification as sort of central concepts of treatment and technique. [18:17.400]那是一个很强的论调，也涉及治疗和技术核心概念里面关于投射性的认同。 [18:24.400]So all these things, I feel like are related, they're of a piece. [18:24.400]所以所有这些事情，我觉得都是相关的，它们谈的是一码事。 [18:27.400]I was wondering if... I mean, you don't have to... this is asking a lot perhaps, [18:27.400]我想知道是否...我的意思是，你不必都...这也许问得有点多， [18:31.400]but maybe you can talk a little bit more about understanding as it relates to other forms of sort of tools, [18:31.400]但也许你可以多谈谈理解，因为它与其他形式的方法有关， [18:39.400]if you will, that one has, the analyst has, like empathy and different concepts like projective. [18:39.400]如果你愿意的话，分析师身上也有，比如共情和投射等不同的概念。 [18:45.400]I'm not sure projective identification totally fits this, but I feel like it's related for you, [18:45.400]我不确定投射认同是否完全符合这一点，但我觉得它与你的理论有关， [18:50.400]or you can relate them perhaps. [18:50.400]或者你可以将它们联系起来谈谈。 [18:53.400]Yeah. I think empathy is the easiest one to relate because I think conventionally, at least, [18:53.400]是的。我认为共情是最容易提及的，因为我认为至少在传统上， [19:00.400]empathy is often thought of as a way of saying, you know, "I understand what you're going through," [19:00.400]共情通常被认为是一种说话的方式，你比方说，“我理解你正在经历的事情。” [19:08.400]and often the subclause there is "because I've been through something similar myself." [19:08.400]而且经常下一句紧跟着就是“因为我自己也经历过类似的事情”。 [19:14.400]And that's, you know, right, that's the sort of presumption that the therapist seems to make [19:14.400]哎这就对了，你知道了吧，这就是治疗师似乎想要采取的假定立场， [19:23.400]when empathizing with someone, "Oh, that must have been difficult for you." [19:23.400]当他想同情某人时，会说，“噢！这对你来说一定很难喔。” [19:28.400]That kind of statement is usually made when the therapist believes that if he or she had been through [19:28.400]这类话术通常是在治疗师认为他或她自己经历过什么时候才说的， [19:36.400]the same experience as the patient, he or she would have found it painful. [19:36.400]就跟病人能经历的一样，自己也会觉得很痛苦。 [19:43.400]And so it's supposedly putting ourselves in somebody else's shoes, but actually what it is, [19:43.400]所以共情就是应该让自己随别人感同身受，但实际上它是什么呢， [19:50.400]is a projection of, you know, "I would have felt this way, therefore you must be feeling this way." [19:50.400]不过是一种投射，你知道，就像，“我有这种感觉，所以你一定也有同感。” [19:58.400]And some people would say, "Well, of course it goes further than that," that we can imagine [19:58.400]呀有些人会说，“没错，它其实要比这种感受还要深，”，那我们可以想象一下哈， [20:05.400]even if we haven't had such an experience, we can imagine why it would be painful for some other person. [20:05.400] 即使我们没有这样的经历，我们也可以想象为什么对其他人来说会很痛苦。 [20:11.400]But I find that in most cases when therapists say things like that, it's often not true that it was [20:11.400]But！我发现，在大多数情况下，当治疗师说处这样的辞调时，往往不是真的， [20:21.400]exactly painful for the patient. And the patient often says, "You know, what the hell do you know about it? [20:21.400]那不是说人家患者真得感到痛苦之类的。而患者经常说，“你懂？你知道个锤子啊你知道！（译注：此处借用中式调侃一番） [20:28.400]You've never been through this." And that's when you get those kind of embarrassing questions [20:28.400]你压根没有经历过这个。” 看看，接着就是你会得到那些尴尬问题的时候， [20:37.400]when the patient says to you, "Well, have you ever been?" And then they describe a situation [20:37.400]譬如病人对你说：“好啊，那说说，你真的有体验过吗？” 然后他们就会描述一种情况， [20:41.400]which probably only three people on earth have ever been in before, and you have to say, [20:41.400]说全世界此前可能只有三个人才经历过，那你就不得不紧着说， [20:46.400]"Well, no, not exactly." Well, then how could you know what I'm talking about? [20:46.400]“好吧好吧，还真不太一样，我没经历过”。所以说啊，你怎么能知道我到底在嘚啵嘚啵个什么呢？（译注：既是指治疗师和病人，也可以泛指一切对话，包括此处的访谈） [20:51.400]So, again, there is a kind of imaginary component to both of those, I think, of understanding and empathy [20:51.400]所以，再强调一下，我认为，双方都有一种想象的成分，都有理解和共情， [21:00.400]because there's a presumption on the therapist's part that, let's say, she understands what the other person [21:00.400]因为治疗师有一个预先假设好的立场，比方说，她自以为了解对方正在 [21:08.400]is going through based on her own experience, whereas the patient often experiences that as not at all true, [21:08.400]经历什么，然而那不过是根据她自己的经验所得，却不知道病人通常的经历根本就不是真的， [21:17.400]and that it's a fantasy on the therapist's part that the therapist really knows what the patient is going through. [21:17.400]所以哦，治疗师嘛，他自己不过在幻想罢了，他自以为真的知道病人在经历什么罢了（liao~）。 [21:25.400]And the patient often finds evidence for that in the kind of comments that the therapist makes about that experience [21:25.400]而患者呢，又常常会通过心理医生对他内心感受和体会的评说，就发现有证据能够证明， [21:34.400]of feeling that the therapist is really barking up the wrong tree. Now, you don't get it at all. [21:34.400]心理医生恰好完全错解了事实。实际上啊，你丁点儿都没理解到位啊。（言外之意：理解只是一种恶性循环） [21:39.400]You really don't know what I'm talking about. So I think those are related. [21:39.400]你真的真的不知道我在说什么而已。所以我认为这些是相关的。 [21:46.400]And perhaps, I think, projective identification would, yeah, I think we would be a little bit more complicated [21:46.400]也许，我认为，投射认同可能会，是的，我想我们会稍微复杂一点， [21:55.400]to link up there, but certainly projection itself is very closely linked to the notion of empathy [21:55.400]在那里联系起来，但投射本身肯定与共情的概念密切相关， [22:05.400]and a presumption that we do understand what somebody else is going through. [22:05.400]并且还是在假设、在推测我们确实了解别人正在经历的事情。 [22:11.400]And I often hear that from therapists that I supervise, of course, they say, "Well, I could tell by the expression on his face [22:11.400]我经常从我督导的治疗师那里听到，当然哈，他们是这么说的，“哟，我完全可以从他脸上的表情就能看出来。 [22:18.400]that, you know, it explains the answer." Well, I don't know. From what you've told me, I'm not so sure that that's exactly what was going on, right? [22:18.400]你懂吧，它解释了答案。” 好吧其实，我看不懂（芬克：我大为震惊！）：从你（指某位治疗师）告诉我的情况来看，我不太确定是否确实有发生了什么，对吧？（主持人配音：嘎嘎嘎的笑） [22:28.400]I see what you mean. Yeah. Actually, I mean, what you seem to be arguing against, too, here is a kind of [22:28.400]哈哈我懂你的意思啦。没错。实际上，我的意思是，你似乎也在反对，那不过是一种 [22:36.400]presumption on the part of the analyst that the analyst really knows, right? The analyst is supposed to occupy the position of a subject [22:36.400]分析师的假设，假设分析师真的知道什么，对吧？分析师应该占据一个主体的位置（译注：然而在拉康派看来，分析师并非一个主体，更多是一种位置或功能） [22:43.400]supposed to know, perhaps, but certainly not believe that or act as if he or she really knows. [22:43.400]一个应该知道些什么的位置，但肯定不会傻傻相信，或者表现得好像他或她自己真的知道什么一样。 [22:51.400]So I guess, though, I feel like there's always a tension in technique papers, though. [22:51.400]所以我想，不过，我觉得讨论技术的文献里面总是存在一种张力。 [22:58.400]I mean, even as you try to argue for "irracularity," is that a word, or "polyvalence," et cetera, I just think it's difficult to write a technique [22:58.400]我的意思是，即使你试图争论“不规则”，这个词，或是“多义”，等等，我只是认为很难写出一篇技术方面的 [23:10.400]paper [23:10.400]文章， [23:10.400]or write up a case or, I don't know, clinical vignette without displaying mastery. [23:10.400]或者写一个这样的案例，又或者，我也不清楚哈就随便说说，写一些临床上的小插曲而不表现出什么控制的成分。 [23:16.400]It seems that a certain mastery or coherence is sort of inherent in that genre or maybe narrative form generally, you know? [23:16.400]似乎看上去，某种控制或连贯是这种类型或一般叙事方法所固有的部分，你觉得呢？ [23:24.400]So I guess my question is, how do you guard against that, or can you? [23:24.400]所以我想我的问题是，你如何防范这种情况发生，或者你能阻止吗？ [23:29.400]Right. Well, I tried to address that. I don't know if you've had a chance to look at the preface to the second volume. [23:29.400]行，这样，我试过解决这类问题。我不知道你有没有机会看一下AU第二卷的序言。 [23:35.400]I talk about that a lot because, you know, I taught a class called "Case Formulation" for many years, [23:35.400]我经常谈论这个问题，因为，你知道，我教一门名为“Case Formulation”的课程很多年了，（译注：查不到此课程） [23:47.400]and first of all, I always encourage the students to talk about the cases where they felt they screwed up the most, [23:47.400]而首先，我总是鼓励学生谈论他们觉得自己搞砸了的最坏情况， [23:56.400]where they were absolutely useless as therapists or they think they made huge mistakes, [23:56.400]当他们作为治疗师表现得完全无用，或他们认为他们犯了巨大的错误时， [24:01.400]because obviously, you know, when people do give public presentations, what they try to do most of the time [24:01.400]因为很明显，你知道，当人们在公众场合下讲话时，他们大部分时间都在尝试去做什么， [24:08.400]is to show that they're competent, if not brilliant, therapists. [24:08.400]是去为了表明他们自己是称职的人，如果治疗师没啥天分的话就会这么说。（译注：可见，差生文具多。人们越是强调规则、设置，越是解释目的、寻求效果，就越是意味着分析家自己产生了防御。于是，站在拉康派的立场上，我们可以坚持说：唯一的阻抗，就是分析家的阻抗。） [24:12.400]And so I indicate in that preface that, you know, it is in writing up clinical papers [24:12.400]鉴于此，我在序言中指出，你知道哈，这就是在撰写临床文章时说的， [24:20.400]that analysts are most inclined to lie through their teeth. [24:20.400]分析家们啊，最喜欢撒个谎什么的。（译注：此处芬克仍然在批评分析家，这里的撒谎是与分析本身无关的行为，撒谎也不是为了调用来访继续分析的目的。可以说，在这个时刻，分析家本人显然有了某种症状，而且是很典型的强迫心理。） [24:26.400]And, you know, I'm not saying I'm completely excluded from that. [24:26.400]而且，你知道，我可不是说连带我自己都能幸免于此。 [24:30.400]I think that all of us, when we make a clinical presentation, [24:30.400]我认为我们所有人，当我们进行临床演示时，（译注：在最严格的意义上，临床演示、案例展示都是一种神经症式的表演行为） [24:34.400]there is a strong temptation to make it sound like we know what we're doing [24:34.400]有一种强烈的诱惑，让它听起来像是我们好似知道自己在做什么一样。 [24:40.400]and that we know where we're headed and that, you know, we've sort of got things more or less under control. [24:40.400]好似我们知道自己要怎么做，你看看，就像是我们已经差不多掌控了一切呢。 [24:46.400]Maybe, you know, we made a mistake here or there, but that generally speaking, you know, we're sort of doing the right thing. [24:46.400]也许，你想哈，我们在这里或那里犯了个错，但总的来说，你看，我们真就觉得在做正确的事情呢。（译注：此处都是讽刺哈） [24:54.400]And so what I point out in the preface and what I always talked about in the class was the number of completely invented facts, [24:54.400]所以我在序言中指出，在课堂上也经常说，那其实是完全捏造的一些事实， [25:05.400]invented scenarios and even invented analyses, lock, stock and barrel, [25:05.400]是被虚构出来的剧情，甚至是共谋下的分析表演，它们组起来看似完整无误、统一齐全， [25:10.400]that we find in the analytic literature, not the least of which is [25:10.400]“lock, stock and barrel”是我们有关分析的文献中发现的，其中最重要的是 [25:15.400]Heinz Kohut's Two Analyses of Mr. K, I think it's called, [25:15.400]海因茨·科胡特（Heinz Kohut）对K先生的两次分析，我记得是叫这个哈， [25:21.400]where he invented one of the analyses in the book, Lock, Stock and Barrel. [25:21.400]他在书里发明/导演了一场分析，那完全是精心虚构的产物。 [25:27.400]And so I think you're quite right that, first of all, [25:27.400]所以我认为你说的很对，首先， [25:36.400]many people misunderstand Lacan's notion of the subject supposed to know to mean that the analyst really does know. [25:36.400]许多人误解了拉康关于“应该/假定/设想知道的主体”这一概念，居然用来指分析家真的知道什么。 [25:44.400]Right. [25:44.400]哎哎哎。 [25:45.400]That's a problem right off the bat. [25:45.400]这就导致，一开始就成了问题。 [25:47.400]And I think many analysts, especially in a kind of context of professionalization of psychoanalysis, believe that they do know. [25:47.400]我认为许多分析家，特别是在精神分析专业化的背景下，笃信他们自己真切知道。 [26:01.400]And when the longer they're at it, they think, well, yeah, you know, I do know more and more. [26:01.400]当他们工作的时间越长时，他们会想，对啊，没错，你懂哈，就是说我（指分析师）知道的越来越多啦。 [26:07.400]And especially people who talk about intuition a lot. [26:07.400]尤其是那些经常谈论直觉的人啊。 [26:11.400]And they think that, you know, the longer they've been practicing, [26:11.400]他们觉得，你看看，他们自己练习、自己去分析别人的时间越长， [26:14.400]they have this fabulous intuition now. [26:14.400]他们现在就有了这种奇妙的直觉。 [26:19.400]Again, I think, you know, there is this bad tendency to think, you know, [26:19.400]再强调一下，我认为，你晓得吧，就是有这种很差劲、很不妥的思维倾向，你看，（译注：bad是一种很严厉的批评了） [26:27.400]I really do know what's going on for this person. [26:27.400]我可是真的知道这个人身上发生了什么哦！ [26:29.400]And the more, the longer I practice, the more quickly I catch on and so on and so forth. [26:29.400]而且随着我练习和分析越多、时间也越长，我就能越很快理解对方，等等之类的吧太多了。（译注：此处仍为反讽） [26:35.400]And I think that really fundamentally goes against everything Floyd and Lacan argued, [26:35.400]我认为啊，这种行为、这种认识就从根本上背叛了弗洛伊德和拉康所谈的一切内容， [26:41.400]which is that, you know, every case is unique. [26:41.400]也就是说，你想哈，每个案例自身实际上都是独一无二的。（译注：然而大量的个案概念化和理论上的普遍认知抹杀了个人性） [26:45.400]And we it's a struggle for us to fathom what's going on in any case. [26:45.400]所以才说无论如何，我们很难理解到底发生了什么。 [26:52.400]And the moment that we begin to think that there are somehow rules and regularities, [26:52.400]当我们开始认为里面有某种普遍的规则和准确的律条那一刻起， [26:58.400]we're really, you know, pulling the wool over our own eyes. [26:58.400]你看，我们压根就是在自欺欺人，蒙了心啊。（译注：应该说，芬克是少有的这么一种拉康派分析家，他不仅批评其它精神分析的流派，而且往往首先是批评拉康派自己的某些问题。然而，需要注意的是此处也是针对分析家的批评，与来访无关，精神分析不为来访立法！此外，自知无知，这并不意味着分析家在一开始或者在分析试探中就要告诉对方“我什么都不懂”，这种冒失的坦诚反而会使得分析在一开始就失去了依赖的基础，即假定知道的能力。） [27:05.400]And so, yeah, you know, I attempt a little bit in that there are about nine different cases [27:05.400]所以，是吧，你看，我就尝试一下，因为大约有九个不同的案例 [27:13.400]that I've included in volumes one and two. [27:13.400]我已收录在AU的上下两卷中。 [27:16.400]And I try to at least, you know, especially probably in the rewriting of them for the, [27:16.400]我至少尝试去表现，你知道，特别是可能在重写它们时， [27:23.400]for this collection to indicate just how unsure of what's going on. [27:23.400]对于论文集里面的案例内容，就想表示，我并不确定真正发生了什么。 [27:30.400]I am at different points in time. [27:30.400]我是在不同的时间写的。 [27:32.400]And depending on the venue in which I gave the paper, [27:32.400]也取决于我发表论文的地方， [27:36.400]I probably succeeded or didn't succeed so well at that. [27:36.400]我可能会成功，也可能干不成。 [27:40.400]But my hope is at least that I don't give anyone the impression that I think I really do know [27:40.400]但我的希望是，至少我不会给任何人留下我认为自己真的知道什么的一种印象， [27:47.400]what exactly was going on all the time and that I thought I was doing the right thing [27:47.400]不想让人觉得我知道到底发生了什么、我认为我在做正确的事情， [27:52.400]and that I knew more about it than the patient did and so on and so forth. [27:52.400]不想让人知道我比病人自己更了解什么，等等吧差不多。 [28:01.400]You know, it occurs to me that, so Lacan didn't write up his cases, right? [28:01.400]你看哈，我就突然想到，拉康没有写他自己的案例，对吧？ [28:07.400]He never, did he use any of his own clinical material? [28:07.400]他从来没有吗，他有用过自己的任何临床材料吗？ [28:11.400]He did, but not a lot. [28:11.400]他当然用过，但不是很多。 [28:14.400]There are the precious little, yeah, there are a couple of vignettes in his work. [28:14.400]倒是有些不错的零碎内容，对，他的作品中有几个小故事。 [28:24.400]There are various reasons for that, some of them perhaps not as good as others. [28:24.400]造成这种情况的原因有很多，其中一些可能不如其他内容要好。 [28:30.400]Lacan was, of course he did write up a lot of his work with the patient in his doctoral thesis, [28:30.400]当然，拉康确实在他的博士论文中写了很多关于病人的工作， [28:38.400]but he wasn't an analyst yet, so he was a psychiatrist at the time. [28:38.400]但那时他还不是分析师，所以当时他是一名精神科医生。 [28:42.400]So you have a dissertation that was based on probably about 200 pages of material [28:42.400]所以你看到有一篇论文，大概基于约200页的材料 [28:48.400]related to a single patient. [28:48.400]只涉及某个患者。 [28:51.400]But later in his work, a lot of his teaching was to a whole group of people who were his patients [28:51.400]但在后来的工作中，他的很多教学都是针对他的一大群患者， [29:00.400]or his supervisees and it was, I think in many cases, very tricky for him to ever mention a patient [29:00.400]或者他的受督对象，我认为在很多情况下，他处理的很巧妙，提到病人的时候， [29:10.400]without other people in the audience recognizing who he was talking about. [29:10.400]听众里没有谁能意识到他在说哪个。（译注：在这个意义上，阅读、理解、教学、分析的场景与主体，都已经交织在了一起。） [29:15.400]And so, you know, the problem of confidentiality was obviously quite important there. [29:15.400]所以，你也知道，保密问题显然非常重要。 [29:22.400]But there also was not, and there still even today is not that big a French tradition of writing up [29:22.400]但无论以前，即使到了今天，法国的写作传统仍然没有那么独特而重要的方式， [29:31.400]case histories in the way Freud did or in the way we're more used to, I think. [29:31.400]我觉得没有弗洛伊德那种或是我们更熟悉的个案报告。 [29:38.400]In America, when I read quite a few of the French case histories, they're often five pages [29:38.400]在美国，我读过相当多的法国案例史，它们通常只有寥寥五页。 [29:46.400]and they're written in such vague terms that there's more theory than there is, you know, [29:46.400]而且它们的用词很模糊，以至于理论都很冗长了，你看， [29:50.400]clinical material to my mind. [29:50.400]理论的东西比我脑海中的临床材料还要多。 [29:52.400]So you basically have to take it for granted that the clinician knows what she's talking about. [29:52.400]所以你基本上必须也只能这么设想：好吧临床医生知道她自己在说些什么内容。（译注：实际上，这就意味着，当我们阅读精神分析的理论作品，特别是关于临床的讨论和分析时，读者往往只能假设“作者不是在胡扯”，然而问题就在于，芬克抛出了这样的疑惑：假如，作者真在胡说呢，或者，作者自大、自傲、自以为是。） [29:58.400]And I often come away thinking, you know, well, what did I learn from that? [29:58.400]我经常在思考，你看，好啊，我从中学到了什么呢？ [30:04.400]You know, is there something that's applicable to my own practice from that? [30:04.400]你想想，有什么东西适用于我自己的分析吗？ [30:09.400]So you disagree with Lacan? I mean, do you think it's very important to write up one's cases then? [30:09.400]所以你不同意拉康的观点？我的意思是，你认为写下一个人的案情很重要吗？ [30:13.400]And why do you do it? What is the purpose of that for you? [30:13.400]你为什么要这样做？这对你来说有什么目的？ [30:18.400]Well, there are a number of purposes for me. [30:18.400]好吧，对我来说有很多目的。 [30:24.400]You know, there are pedagogical purposes, but also for myself, despite numerous years of my own [30:24.400]你想啊，有教学的目的，但也是为了我自己，尽管我自己的督导工作都有很多年 [30:35.400]supervision with people I worked with in France, I continue to find it very useful to present a case [30:35.400]是与我在法国共事的人一起做，我仍然发现给出一个案例就非常有用， [30:41.400]that I'm having trouble with to a group of my colleagues at a conference, usually something on the [30:41.400]譬如我在会议上与一群同事有了争执，通常就是在一些 [30:47.400]small side, not, you know, hundreds of people, but a small group, many of whom I know and we've worked [30:47.400]小的方面，不是你想的那种大几百人的场面，而就是一小撮人，其中许多我都认识，我们一同工作过 [30:55.400]together for many years. And so, right, they give me feedback. [30:55.400]多年。所以，看吧，他们能给我反馈。 [31:02.400]They can, you know, since they're not there in the room with the patient, they can propose things that [31:02.400]他们可以说点什么，你看，就因为他们不待在病人的房间里，他们可以提出一些东西， [31:09.400]are completely different from what I was thinking. [31:09.400]提一些与我的想法完全不同的内容。 [31:11.400]And even if I don't ultimately accept it, it forces me to think further. [31:11.400]即使我最终不接受异见，那也会迫使我继续思考下去。 [31:18.400]So it gives me a different take on the case. It's a kind of group supervision in that sense. [31:18.400]因此，这就让我对说起的某个案子有了不同的看法。从这个意义上说，这算一种群体督导了。 [31:24.400]And so some of the some cases I wrote up for more pedagogical purposes to, you know, train other [31:24.400]因此，我写的一些案例是为了更方便教学的目的，你知道，训练其他 [31:33.400]clinicians, also to illustrate certain concepts. So, for example, in volume one, there's a case of [31:33.400]临床医生，同时也为了说明某些概念。例如，在第一卷中，有一个案例， [31:43.400]fetishism and, you know, writing up that case and thinking about it over the years led me to think [31:43.400]讲恋物，你知道，写完这个案例并多年来的思考，就让我想到， [31:53.400]of fetishism as involving a logic, which I call a both/and logic, which is somewhat different from [31:53.400]恋物涉及一种逻辑，我称之为两者兼而有之的逻辑，这不同于 [32:01.400]the logic that we find, say, in neurosis or psychosis. And so writing up cases, to me, is they may [32:01.400]我们在神经症或精神病中发现的逻辑。所以写案例，对我来说，它们可能会有助于 [32:11.400]illustrate the theory, but they may also allow us to come up with something new at a theoretical level. [32:11.400]说明理论，但它们也可能让我们在理论层面上提出一些新的东西。 [32:19.400]That's my hope would be, at least. And I think also that for people who are learning about [32:19.400]至少这是我的期待。我也认为对于那些正在学习 [32:30.400]the theory and the practice, they don't really know what the hell it looks like, what the practice [32:30.400]理论和实践的人来说，他们真的不知道精神分析到底是什么样子，实践起来又是 [32:37.400]looks like, unless you give them some examples of it. And of course, they're only the examples of how [32:37.400]像什么，除非你给他们一些实在的例子。当然，它们只是一些 [32:42.400]I practice and every Lacanian that I know practices very differently. And they all practice quite [32:42.400]我怎样工作的案例，我认识的每个拉康派分析家做法都非常不同。他们都做得相当不同， [32:48.400]differently from me in certain respects. So all I can do is give an example of what I do. But if you [32:48.400]在某些方面与我很不一样。所以我能做的就是举个例子来说明我的工作。但是如果你 [32:54.400]want to give people a sense, it's a way to write up a case, I think, is to put yourself to the test [32:54.400]想要告诉人们是怎么一回事，那就用写案例的方式，我觉得，就是让你自己接受考验， [33:06.400]in some sense, right, is to show, well, what is it that you really do when you practice? Because [33:06.400]从某种意义上说是这样，没错，这就是要表明，当你做分析的时候，你到底在做什么？因为 [33:11.400]there are plenty of people who talk a good theoretical line. And then, you know, when you hear, [33:11.400]有很多人能讲一口漂亮的理论框架。然后，你看，当你听到， [33:16.400]you say, you send a patient to them, you refer someone to them, a relative, a friend, a friend of [33:16.400]你比如说，你让一个病人去找他们分析的时候，你把某人介绍给他们，譬如一个亲戚，一个朋友 [33:21.400]a friend or whatever, and you hear about what went on exactly. You go, Oh, my God, I can't believe [33:21.400]或者随便谁都行，然后你才听到，原来发生了什么。你会发现，噢我的上帝，我简直不敢相信 [33:27.400]it. I'll never send somebody to that person again. And so it's nice to have a sense of, you know, [33:27.400]这种事儿。我再也不会让患者去找那个人做分析了。所以很高兴有一种感觉，你懂哈， [33:36.400]was this person able to work successfully for a number of years with somebody? What seemed to be [33:36.400]就是说，那个人真能成功地跟谁一起做上很多年的分析吗？似乎在 [33:43.400]the outcome, even if it's an ongoing case? You know, does there seem to be improvement? Yeah. [33:43.400]结果上来看，哪怕这是一个还在继续的案例？你看，情况似乎有所改善吗？是吧。 [33:53.400]Yeah. Oh, you know, you mentioned this, the boot fetish case. And I was actually, it was really [33:53.400]哦，你知道，你提过这个，关于靴子的恋物癖案例。而我实际上，真的 [34:01.400]interesting to me because you in that there's a whole chapter, there are several chapters on that [34:01.400]对我来说很有趣，因为你有一整章内容，有好几章都是关于那个 [34:05.400]analysis. And correct? Or is that? No, that was the one. Yes. I conflated two of them. Okay. Right. [34:05.400]分析。对吗？是这样不？不，就一章。对。哦哦我把其中两个混为一谈了。好吧（主持人尴尬笑笑）。 [34:13.400]So you follow the boot one in your chapter, you all the paths of his association, you trace all [34:13.400]所以你在你的章节中顺着靴子的案例，写到所有关于他联想到的路径，你追踪所有 [34:20.400]the signifiers and sort of fantasies that lead and connect to his being haunted by these big black [34:20.400]引出并联系到他被大黑靴子所困扰的那些符号和幻想， [34:26.400]boots, right? And then you discuss the boot as the name of the father and the object, an object that [34:26.400]对吧？然后你讨论靴子作为父之名，还有客体对象，一个 [34:32.400]performs a kind of a limit setting function, etc. So I want to ask you because this is a more for my [34:32.400]用来表现一种规范设置的限制功能等。所以我想问你，因为这对我来说更关乎 [34:41.400]own personal interest. So there was this moment in the 90s, 1990s when I was in graduate school, I [34:41.400]自己的个人兴趣哈。所以在90年代，1990年代，当我读研究生时，那时候，我 [34:47.400]guess, but I've taught this literature in my own classes anyway, when lots of the moment was when [34:47.400]猜猜，但无论如何，我在自己的课堂上教过这种内容，当时很多时候都是 [34:53.400]lots of sociologists and cultural theorists, it seemed we're very interested in writing about [34:53.400]很多社会学家和文化理论家，我们似乎很有兴趣写一些 [34:57.400]fetishism, sexual fetishism, commodity fetishism. And the question of female fetishism, sexual [34:57.400]拜物/恋物、性恋物癖、商品的恋物。还有女性恋物癖的问题，性 [35:05.400]fetishism came up repeatedly. And I thought, I thought it was strange that some people were very [35:05.400]的恋物癖反复出现。我想，我觉得很奇怪，有些人很 [35:12.400]committed to discovering that they were female fetishists, or sort of arguing for this possibility [35:12.400]致力于发现她们是女性恋物癖患者，或者为这种可能性争论 [35:18.400]of female fetishism. And I guess, you know, because I think it was because I figured out it was [35:18.400]女性恋物癖。我想，你知道，因为我认为这是因为我想到了 [35:25.400]because some people believed in the creativity of fetishism, that somehow fetishists were sexually [35:25.400]因为有些人相信恋物的创造力，所以恋物癖患者在某种程度是性层面上 [35:31.400]creative beings. So and of course, others insisted that this was a structural impossibility if you [35:31.400]具有创造力的人。不过当然了，其他人坚持认为这是一个结构意义上的不可能状态，如果你要 [35:38.400]follow Freud strictly. So I guess, so my question is, what do you what do you think? I mean, is a [35:38.400]严格遵循弗洛伊德的话。所以我猜，我的问题是，你是怎么看的？我的意思是，一个 [35:44.400]feminine sexual fetishist or female identified fetishist possible structurally? Or have you and [35:44.400]女性的性恋物癖或女性认定的恋物癖，在结构上这可能吗？或者你， [35:52.400]have you seen it? And, you know, how would you explain it? All right, well, I haven't seen it, but [35:52.400]你见过吗？而且，你说说，你怎么去解释它？好好好，我没见过，但是 [35:59.400]I wouldn't rule anything out. Because I think that would be stupid. I think that, you know, theory [35:59.400]我不排除任何可能情况。因为我认为那就太蠢了。我认为，你看啊，理论自身 [36:04.400]has got to always be open to revision. And for me, what was the what was funniest was, I think, it [36:04.400]必须始终对修改和建议持有开放的态度。对我来说，最有趣的是，我认为，它 [36:13.400]was probably, you know, like a week after I published my clinical introduction in 1997, I received [36:13.400]大概是，你想，在我1997年发表临床导论一周后，我在邮件里收到了 [36:20.400]in the mail, an advertisement for a new movie that had just come out, I think it was [36:20.400]一个刚刚上映的电影广告，我想是那可以 [36:29.400]called female perversion. And I just argued, you know, I just made this whole theoretical argument [36:29.400]称为女性的倒错。我只是想强调，你看，我就是给整个理论做了论证。 [36:35.400]in chapter nine on perversions that, you know, it's in psychoanalysis, it's considered to be, you [36:35.400]譬如在第九章里关于倒错的内容，你知道，在精神分析中，它被认为是， [36:41.400]know, structurally speaking, you know, for men only, so to speak, women may not apply. And so I [36:41.400]要知道，从结构上来讲，因为只对男性才会有的，可以这么认为哈，而女人可能不适用。所以你看我也 [36:54.400]don't know, you know, I haven't looked into the cases where I've supposed female fetishism, but, [36:54.400]不清楚，你看，我没有研究过我认为是女性恋物癖的案例，但是， [37:05.400]you know, I'm not saying that, well, I guess what I would say is that our knowledge in psychoanalysis [37:05.400]你想想，我不是在说，好吧，其实我想说的是，我们在精神分析方面的知识 [37:15.400]of perversion in general and fetishism in particular, is quite limited. That's, that's my sense, [37:15.400]关于一般的倒错内容，以及恋物癖方面的情况，了解是相当有限的。这就是我的感觉， [37:23.400]much, much more limited than, let's say, obsession or hysteria. And that, you know, first of all, the [37:23.400]比方说，要比强迫症或歇斯底里有限得多的多。而且，你知道，首先， [37:37.400]vast majority of fetishes don't come to see analysts, or when they do, they don't really necessarily [37:37.400]绝大多数恋物癖者不会来见分析家，或者当他们来见分析家时，他们不一定真正需要 [37:45.400]engage in a long term analysis. And I've read precious few cases, you know, written by clinicians [37:45.400]长期分析。我读过很少的几个案例，你知道，由临床医生写的 [37:54.400]of such cases. And yeah, so the people who seem to have more experience with that are people who [37:54.400]此类病情。对吧，所以似乎对此有更多经验的人是那些 [38:11.400]work in sex offender clinics, and so on. And, and again, the goals of the therapy, they're not really [38:11.400]在性犯罪者诊所工作的，等等吧。而且，还得说，对于治疗的目标，他们不是真的 [38:19.400]to understand the origin of the, of the fetish, but you know, how to keep it under control. And that [38:19.400]要了解恋物癖的缘由，但你也知道哈，只是如何控制它罢了。而那也 [38:28.400]isn't necessarily very conducive either to understanding, you know, how and why. So I don't [38:28.400]也不一定很有利于理解，譬如怎么样以及为什么。所以我不 [38:37.400]think Lacan necessarily bought entirely Freud's argument on the origin of fetishism. I don't know [38:37.400]认为拉康必然完全相信弗洛伊德关于恋物癖根由的观点。我不知道， [38:45.400]that he, you know, provided a full blown theory of it himself. I'm not sure really anybody has a [38:45.400]你想啊，他自己提供了一套完整的理论。我不确定真的有人有一个 [38:54.400]terribly convincing theory of it. But so, you know, what I'd love to see is the literature around [38:54.400]非常具备说服力的理论。但是，你知道，我想看到的是这类文献 [39:02.400]female fetishism, and not just as, you know, something, you know, that's creative, or one thing [39:02.400]围绕一些女性恋物癖的话题，而不仅仅是，某件事，某个创造性的东西，或者什么内容 [39:10.400]one, you know, we could say, let's say from a Lacanian standpoint is according to Lacan, you know, [39:10.400]你看，我们可以说，假设从拉康派的观点来看，根据拉康的说法，你想想， [39:16.400]all sexuality, all human sexuality is fetishistic. And insofar as it involves object A, object A is [39:16.400]所有的性，所有的人类性行为都是恋物的。只要它涉及对象 a，对象 a 就是 [39:26.400]itself inherently fetishistic, you know, from the moment Lacan invents the notion of object A, it, [39:26.400]它本身就具有天生的恋物特征，你知道，从拉康发明对象a概念的那一刻起，它， [39:34.400]you know, it already comes from the time when Alcibiades basically has a fetish related to Socrates [39:34.400]就已经得自：阿尔西比亚德斯大概对苏格拉底有着恋物情愫的时候。 [39:42.400]and sees something fetishistic in a sense in Socrates, and which is of course the book that I have [39:42.400]并且也能在苏格拉底的意义上看到恋物的内容，而这些内容马上在 [39:52.400]that will be coming out next year. It's a commentary on love and on Lacan's reading of Plato's [39:52.400]明年就要出版了。这是对爱情、对拉康解读柏拉图《会饮篇》的评述 [39:58.400]Symposium in Seminar 8 where he essentially invents the concept of object A. So, but that's an easy, [39:58.400]在研讨班8里面，他基本上发明了对象a的概念。所以，但这很容易， [40:06.400]you know, theoretical flourish to say, well, you know, in any case, all sexuality is fetishistic, [40:06.400]你知道，可以说是理论上的爆发，对吧，你看，无论如何，所有的性都有恋物的成分， [40:11.400]so why not for women to? But, you know, the specificity of a fetish, I don't know, I wouldn't be [40:11.400]那么为什么不朝向女人呢？但是，你看，恋物癖的特殊性，我也不知道，我也是 [40:19.400]able to say. Right. I mean, I think one paper in one collection called "Fetishism as Cultural [40:19.400]没法儿去说。好吧。我的意思是，我认为一篇论文集里名为“作为文化话语的恋物癖”文章 [40:25.400]Discourse" argued that actually kleptomania was a form of fetishism. But anyway, it's just different. [40:25.400]就认为，实际上盗窃癖是一种恋物。不过无论如何，它只是换了种形式。 [40:31.400]If we have to change the concept of fetishism, I guess, to accommodate other forms, right? Right. [40:31.400]如果我们必须改变恋物的概念，我想，去适应其他形式，对吧？嘎嘎。 [40:39.400]But let's leave fetishism for, let's move on to like good old neurosis and psychosis. So in your [40:39.400]但是，让我们离开恋物癖，继续探讨那些经典的神经症和精神病。所以在你的 [40:47.400]second chapter actually on clinical, in the clinical practice section, you discuss the different [40:47.400]第二章实际上是关于临床的内容，在临床实践部分，你讨论了各种 [40:54.400]ways that you treat neurotic and psychotic patients. And so you talk at length about diagnosis [40:54.400]治疗神经症和精神病患者的方式。所以你详细谈论诊断， [41:01.400]according, of course, to Lacan's criteria of diagnosis. And I was hoping you'd have more on the [41:01.400]当然是符合拉康的诊断标准。我希望你能有更多关于 [41:07.400]actual technique around with psychotic patients. I know you do this a little, you do this in greater [41:07.400]精神病患者的实操技术。我知道你在这方面有做了一点工作，你实际上做得还 [41:14.400]depth in the 2007 book. But maybe you can talk a little bit about how, well, first of all, one [41:14.400]还挺有深度，譬如2007年的一本书。不过也许你可以谈谈如何，嗯，首先，人们该怎么 [41:20.400]detects a psychotic structure and how Lacan defines it and then maybe say a few things about [41:20.400]探寻精神病结构以及拉康如何定义它，然后也许可以说一些关于 [41:26.400]treatment of psychotics. Right. Yeah, it is a huge question. And of course, because there are [41:26.400]精神病方面的治疗。对对对，没错，这是一个很大的问题。当然，因为有 [41:38.400]numerous forms of psychosis and, you know, I think a certain number of clinicians at [41:38.400]多种形式的精神病，对吧，我认为一定有数量的临床医生 [41:49.400]Edinburgh Rage are adept at identifying somebody who is in the middle of a psychotic break and [41:49.400]活跃在爱丁堡王立医学会举办的系列医学讲座里，他们善于识别处于精神病发作中的患者，以及对方 [41:57.400]is having obvious hallucinations and so on. And so in certain of those cases, diagnosis is not [41:57.400]身上明显的幻觉等。因此，在某些情况下，诊断对他们来说 [42:05.400]really a problem for them to, it's not a problem for them to identify who is psychotic and who [42:05.400]真不是什么问题，对他们来说，确定谁是精神病和谁不是精神病压根就不是什么问题。 [42:12.400]isn't. However, there has been a tendency in practice and in the literature as well to sort of [42:12.400]然而，如今在治疗实践和文献研究中都存在一种趋势， [42:22.400]think, well, you know, people can become psychotic and then they go back to being something else and [42:22.400]想想哈，对，你知道，人们可能会变得精神病，然后他们又变回了另一个人， [42:27.400]then they become psychotic again at certain times. And so there's a kind of fudging on a kind of [42:27.400]然后他们在某些时候又变成精神病了。所以对此有一种篡改，有人捏造了 [42:33.400]structural difference between the two. Whereas for Lacan, you know, you're psychotic. If you're [42:33.400]两者之间在结构上的差异。而对于拉康来说，你想想，你是个精神病患者。如果你得了 [42:40.400]psychotic, you're structurally speaking psychotic your whole life. That doesn't mean you're in the [42:40.400]精神病，你一生都在结构上是个精神病样儿。而这并不意味着你每时每刻 [42:45.400]middle of a psychotic break at every moment. Thank God. And so I find it especially difficult, [42:45.400]都在精神崩溃的边缘。天啦撸！（绝不可能嘛！） 所以我觉得这事儿很麻烦哈， [42:59.400]even with people who have read everything that I've written about the distinction between [42:59.400]即使有人读过我写的关于两者之间区别的所有内容， [43:04.400]neurosis and psychosis. Practitioners often that I work with, that I supervise or talk with, still [43:04.400]读过神经症和精神病之间的差别。还有一些经常与我一起工作、督导或交流的从业者，他们仍然 [43:12.400]have a difficulty seeing the difference between the two. And I think it has something to do with [43:12.400]很难看出两者之间的区别。我认为这与 [43:19.400]the way people have come to practice these days. Whereas Freud and people in the first couple of [43:19.400]如今人们现在选择怎么去从业、如何去分析的方式有关。而弗洛伊德和别人在前几 [43:28.400]generations, I think of analysts, were very attuned to slips of the tongue and double entendres and [43:28.400]几代人的时候，我想是分析家哈，他们就非常适应口误、双关语，还能 [43:38.400]plays on words. That's all been given up or largely been given up. And that really the emphasis [43:38.400]琢磨文字游戏。而现在这一切都被人抛弃了，或者差不多要被弃置一边。这才为什么现在真正的重点只是 [43:46.400]has been on understanding. Again, when you listen to slips of the tongue, they don't make any sense, [43:46.400]一直处在理解的层次上。也就是，当你听口误时，它们没有任何意义，（译注：而拉康派的分析对象，从来且一直都是言语，特别是那些荒谬而愚蠢的话语，因此完全不同于那些要求理性思考、科学态度、正确描述的情况。） [43:52.400]right? If you don't listen to them and you immediately substitute in your mind what the person [43:52.400]对吧？如果你不去倾听他们，你就会立即在脑海中替换那个人 [43:58.400]was probably you think trying to say, you're trying to understand them and get at the meaning [43:58.400]可能在你看来试图想说的话，而你就试图理解他们，获取那些 [44:05.400]that they're trying, the conscious meaning they're trying to convey, right? What they've actually [44:05.400]他们正在尝试说的含义，那些他们在意识层面上试图传达的意义，对吧？而他们实际上 [44:13.400]said goes out the window. And most clinicians that I work with cannot tell me often, you know, in the [44:13.400]真正要说的内容早就溃败不见。和我一起工作的大多数临床医生都常常不能告诉我，你看， [44:20.400]first few times we talk about a patient they've been working with sometime for years, whether or [44:20.400]前几次我们有谈论起一个病人，他们已经一块儿磨合了多年，无论是不是 [44:25.400]not the patient makes slips of the tongue. And, you know, one very common thing that we find in [44:25.400]病人有了口误。而且，你知道，我们发现一件非常普遍的事情， [44:33.400]work with psychotics is they make almost none or, you know, virtually no slips of the tongue. I've [44:33.400]在与精神病患者一起工作时，他们几乎，几乎没有口误。而我 [44:40.400]already made at least three here. I didn't come to the tongue because it was too embarrassing. [44:40.400]已经至少说了三个口误。不过我没有说出来，因为那太让人尴尬了。（芬克：我老脸一红...） [44:44.400]Oh my God, I didn't even, oh, I didn't get it. Oh my God, this is mean. Well, that's okay. Sometimes I just start them [44:44.400]是吧，天哪，我没有这样做，好吧，我没能说出来。哦，麻瓜！这就有点儿小心机了。额，其实也没啥。有时我就会说一些口误， [44:51.400]and then I sort of stop them in the middle so I don't quite get all the way into them. But most people, [44:51.400]然后我把它们卡到一半，所以我不会完全把口误表达出来。但大多数人， [44:58.400]you know, will make slips of the tongue and most people, you know, if you work with a neurotic for [44:58.400]你知道，会讲一些口误，大多数人都这样，你想啊，如果你和一个神经症患者一起工作 [45:04.400]any period of time, you will hear slips of the tongue if you're at all attuned to them. And that is [45:04.400]任何时候，如果你完全适应的话，你会听到各种口误。那就是 [45:11.400]one of our first, you know, what Kron called them unconscious formations. But, you know, Freud referred to [45:11.400]我们最早知道的，你看，是克朗称之为无意识的表现。但是，你想想，弗洛伊德提到 [45:18.400]them as the parapraxis and the parapraxis are all about neurosis. These parapraxis, you know, when you [45:18.400]这些作为口误，而口误都是关于神经症的现象。这些口误，你看，当你 [45:25.400]take out your key to your office, when you come home to your lover, you know, most people, most [45:25.400]拿着钥匙去办公室，回爱人的家，你看，大多数人， [45:35.400]neurotics can be made to think, hmm, what that means, you know, would I rather be going to my office [45:35.400]大多数神经症患者可能就会想，嗯，这意味着啥，你想，我要不还是去我的办公室？ [45:42.400]or is coming home like going to my office or, you know, whatever, some confusion between love life and [45:42.400]或者回家，就像去办公室，又或者，你知道哈，无论如何，总有一些困惑发生在生活中的爱情和 [45:48.400]work life. In psychosis, that reflection, even if such a mistake was made, it remains at the level of [45:48.400]工作之间。而在精神病中，这种觉察和反思，即使有犯了这样的错误，它仍然停留在 [45:59.400]a mistake and can't be brought into discourse in a way which might open up a whole set of questions [45:59.400]一个错误的阶段，而不能以一种可能打开一整个问题集的方式来讨论 [46:06.400]about, you know, what's going on for me at work, what's going on for me at home, is there, right, some [46:06.400]譬如，你看，讨论我在工作中发生了什么事情，我在家里做了什么，有没有一些 [46:14.400]kind of weird overlap or problem there. So, yeah, so my sense is that clinicians are no longer attuned [46:14.400]奇怪的重叠或问题呢。所以啊，对吧，我的感觉是临床医生不再能适应处理 [46:28.400]to the very simple indications of who is neurotic and who isn't because they no longer listen for the [46:28.400]对于谁是神经症、谁不是神经症这类非常简单的迹象，因为他们不再认真去听 [46:37.400]letter of what somebody says and so they don't even hear slips of the tongue. They don't even hear [46:37.400]某人说的话，所以他们甚至都听不到口误。他们甚至听不到 [46:43.400]their own because one, they haven't been pointed out in the course of their own psychoanalysis, right, [46:43.400]他们自己的问题，因为，他们在自己的精神分析过程中就没有被指出来，对吧（译注：此处芬克批评带有过度理性、科学和客观的治疗师和医生群体，其对语言、行为、观念的认识排斥了其它特别是真实生活的任何可能，而过度推崇和依赖所谓的概念化和抽象结构） [46:49.400]that they did as part of their own training and they don't do it on a regular basis with their own [46:49.400]譬如他们作为自己训练的一部分，他们不会定期用病人来这样训练自己 [46:55.400]patients. So, and what the importance of all that is to know whether or not the patient that you're working with [46:55.400]那么，这一切的重要性在于，要知道与你一同工作的患者 [47:06.400] has, let's say, an unconscious that functions in the way that we're used to somebody's [47:06.400]比方说，身上是否有一种无意识，一种我们已经习惯、熟悉了别人身上无意识如何运作的方式， [47:14.400]unconscious functioning. The whole point of that being that when we make interpretations, we're [47:14.400]重点是，当我们做出解释，我们是 [47:21.400]trying to shake up something when we work with a neurotic at the level of the unconscious and if there [47:21.400]在无意识的层面上与神经症患者一起工作的时候试图动摇一些东西，如果 [47:26.400]is no functioning unconscious in somebody's case, if that person is a psychotic, then we would be [47:26.400]在某人的案例中没有正在运作的无意识，如果那个人是精神病患者，那么我们就会 [47:33.400]foolish to try to shake up something that isn't there to be shaken up and what we do instead when we [47:33.400]愚蠢地试图动摇一些本不应该被动摇的东西，而当我们这样 [47:40.400]make an interpretation that plays on, that involves a play on words of two different meanings of a word [47:40.400]给出一种解释，一种对字词的游戏，对具有两个不同含义的单词来琢磨 [47:48.400]that they themselves use or two different meanings of an expression that they themselves use. They [47:48.400]他们自己使用过的词，或他们自己使用的表达方式就能有两种不同含义，如果我们这么做，那他们 [47:53.400]often look at us with perplexity or they get angry simply that, you know, what the hell are we talking [47:53.400]就经常用困惑的眼神看着我们，或者人家直接生气了，你看，我们就说了个麻瓜啊。 [48:00.400]about, you know. Yeah, that's what I said. So, a difference in technique in working with psychotics is [48:00.400]你懂了吧。对，我就是这么认为。因此，与精神病患者工作的临床技术，区别在于 [48:14.400]first of all that we're not trying to shake up meaning whereas with a neurotic we are. We're not [48:14.400]首先，我们不要试图动摇对方的意义，而对于神经症患者，我们就得这样干。我们不能 [48:21.400]trying to shake up a configuration of things in the unconscious with a psychotic as we are with a neurotic. [48:21.400]在与精神病患者工作的时候，试图用对待神经症患者的方式来动摇那些无意识中事物的结构和成分， [48:28.400]And so, the type of interpretations we make, I would even say that for the most part with [48:28.400]因此，我们所做的解释类型，我甚至会说在大多数情况下（译注：根据芬克的其它观点，或者解释可以分为两类，一般便于理解的解释指直接、具体、单一、常规、普遍，这样就走向了暗示suggestion的角度；而在拉康派的角度，用于、有助于分析工作的解释仍是多义、多样、开放、不确定、模糊。） [48:36.400]psychotics, we don't interpret, we make suggestions, we try to encourage certain things that might lead [48:36.400]治疗精神病患者，我们不作解释，而是提出暗示，我们试图鼓励某些事情， [48:44.400]to a change in the way that the psychotic sees a particularly menacing person in their world. We might [48:44.400]那可能会改变精神病患者，譬如在他们的世界里怎样看待一个特别具有威胁感的人。我们可能会 [48:55.400]try to plaster over certain things, calm certain things down. With a neurotic who's talking about a [48:55.400]试着在某些事情上粉饰、修补一番，让某些事情平静下来。在分析神经症患者时，譬如对方在谈论 [49:02.400]particularly unpleasant person in their life. We probably try to tease out everything about that person [49:02.400]一个生活中特别讨人厌的家伙，我们可能会试图梳理出关于那个人所有 [49:10.400]right in their experience of that person that's unpleasant for them. And in the case of a psychotic, [49:10.400]发生在他们与对方有关的经历，那对他们来说是不愉快的内容。而在精神病患者的情况下， [49:16.400]once we hear some of the details, we probably want to try to do anything to ensure that their encounter [49:16.400]一旦我们听到一些细节，我们可能会采取任何方式来确保他们遇到 [49:24.400]with that person doesn't lead to a psychotic break and help smooth things over. So, our position is [49:24.400]那个人的时候，不会招致精神上的崩溃，这样也有助于平息可能的事端。所以，我们处理不同问题的立场是 [49:30.400]very different whereas we avoid suggestion whenever possible with neurotics. We use suggestion with psychotics. [49:30.400]很不一样的，对于神经症患者我们尽可能避免暗示什么。对于精神病患者我们才使用暗示。（译注：芬克认为，对于神经症患者往往可以给出某种多义的解释，只有特殊情况下才会偶尔给出具体的解释，解释常常还会表现为重复或重组患者自己的话，又或是用犹太人式的方法：以问题来回答问题。但拉康派的解释不同于其它类的解释，而仅仅针对能够推动分析继续的解释，这样的解释不是为了让患者理解什么。这完全不同于那种表现为“暗示”、提供理解和意义的孤立解释，后者往往容易导致某种“智力上的拼斗”或“知识竞赛”。此外，对解释的肯定就是对不开口的批评，如拉康所言，不开口的沉默是一种背离，分析家不能只会闭嘴，他的沉默必须积极起来。） [49:36.400] We avoid interpretation with psychotics whereas we use it sparingly but nevertheless [49:36.400]我们避免对精神病患者使用解释，而我们谨慎使用解释，不过尽管如此 [49:45.400]hopefully to good effect with neurotics. So, that is a very quick sketch. [49:45.400]还是希望对神经症患者能有不错的效果。所以，这是一个非常简单的判别方法。 [49:53.400]I want to talk to you more about this but we're running out of time and it's good that we're having [49:53.400]我想和你谈谈更多关于这个问题，但我们的时间不多了。不错，我们 [50:01.400]another one of these hour interviews because I want to ask a lot of follow up questions. [50:01.400]之后还会有长达一个小时的采访，因为我还想问很多后续的问题。 [50:09.400]Actually one thing I wanted to give you before we end because I wanted to ask you about translating [50:09.400]实际上，在我们结束之前，我想问你一件事，因为我想问你关于翻译拉康的问题 [50:16.400]Lacan and I also wanted to ask you about body language because I actually, I think in your chapter on [50:16.400]而且我也想问你关于身体语言的问题，因为我实际上，我认为在你的章节里，关于 [50:23.400]Lacan's variations on the standard treatment, you talk about how analysts lately privileged the body [50:23.400]拉康对标准治疗的变化，你谈到近来的分析家更优先看重身体 [50:29.400]over speech and you ask this seemingly basic question like why do we assume that the body is somehow [50:29.400]而不是言语，而且你提出了一个看似基本的问题，比如为什么我们假设身体在某种程度上是 [50:36.400]more truthful or more primary? So, I wanted to give you the opportunity to sort of argue against the [50:36.400]更意味着真实或者更加基础？所以，我想给你一个机会来反驳 [50:43.400]importance of body language but also ask, I mean, is it possible to sort of over correct here? Is there [50:43.400]身体语言的重要性。但同时也要问，我的意思是，这里是否有可能矫正过度？是不是 [50:50.400]a kind of, is there a danger of fetishizing speech or do you think there's no such possibility? [50:50.400]有一种，是不是否存在迷恋言语的危险，或者你认为没有这种可能性吗？ [51:00.400]Well, no, I think that we have to realize that they both lie. That what's important is not to say that [51:00.400]嗯，不，我认为我们必须意识到无论身体语言或者口头言语，它们都会撒谎。重要的是不要说 [51:07.400]speech is more important than body language but that we can't understand either of them automatically [51:07.400]言语比身体语言更重要，而是我们无法充分理解它们中的任何一种表现，那既谈不上自然 [51:14.400]or transparently and that I think that people, you know, even many therapists probably think, [51:14.400]也并不透彻，我认为人们，你看，甚至许多治疗师可能都会觉得， [51:22.400]yeah, well, he's saying that but that's not really true or is that really what he means? But when they [51:22.400]是的，嗯，他会说但那不是真的，或者说真的是他的意思吗？但是当他们 [51:28.400]see a patient cry, they think, oh my God, you know, that's the real stuff. That's not true. I mean, [51:28.400]看到一个病人哭泣，他们会想，哦，天哪，你知道，这才是真实的、有价值的东西。然而我要说，那不是真的，那没用。 [51:37.400]you know, I think most of us in our relations with lovers, children, parents, we know that sometimes [51:37.400]你想啊，我想我们大多数人在与爱人、孩子、父母的关系中，我们知道有时 [51:48.400]we cry not simply because we're hurt or we're sad but that, you know, it's over determined and it [51:48.400]我们哭泣不仅仅是因为我们受伤或悲伤，而是，你动动脑子，这是有很多因素影响的，它 [51:56.400]can be a way of getting somebody's sympathy, if not an outright ploy in a conversation to get somebody [51:56.400]可以是一种获得某人同情的方式，要么是谈话中很直接的策略，要让某人 [52:04.400]to stop yelling at us or to change discourses to, you know, that somebody who's being belligerent with [52:04.400]停止对我们大喊大叫，要么是去改变话语，你想，某个对我们很有敌意的人， [52:13.400]us and going on and on about the same thing that they're saying we did wrong that after a while we [52:13.400]而且对我们一直在说同样的事情，一直说我们做错了，然后一段时间，我们 [52:19.400]just can't, no matter how much we try to justify ourselves, nothing seems to appease them. Well, you [52:19.400]就是没法，无论我们多么努力为自己辩护，似乎没有什么能安抚他们。于是，你就 [52:28.400]break down and cry and sometimes it stops, you know, it stops the other person. So all I would say is [52:28.400]崩溃了，你哭了，偶尔这样就结束了，你看，它让另一个人消停了。所以我只想说 [52:37.400]that whereas people tend to say, oh yeah, you know, the patient's stomach grumbled and therefore that [52:37.400]虽然人们倾向于说，喔好吧，你瞧，病人的肚子咕咕叫了，因此 [52:45.400]meant X, Y, X, exactly. And I said, well, how do you know it meant X, maybe it meant Y. And, you know, [52:45.400]那是在说X，Y，X呢。我说，行行行，你怎么知道它的意思是X，也许它的意思是Y呢。而且，你得明白， [52:53.400]why don't you ask the patient what she thinks it meant. And so I guess what I would say is not that [52:53.400]你为什么不问问病人她自己觉得是什么呢。所以我想说，不在于 [53:03.400]speech doesn't speak the truth, speech lies just as easily as anything else, but why should we think [53:03.400]言语不说真话，而是，言语和其他任何东西一样都容易扯谎，但我们为什么要去思考 [53:11.400]that body language is a dead giveaway? Right, right. Yeah, [53:11.400]身体语言无疑是显露了内心真实想法的证据和反应呢？是吧（译注：这句话强调身体语言作为一个人通向内心世界的“不设防”窗口,可以洞察隐藏在语言背后更真实的情绪状态。） [53:19.400]that it contains something more fundamental somehow to the person. Right. So before we conclude for this time, I did want to ask you about [53:19.400]它对某个人来说包含了更基本的东西。是滴。那在我们结束这段访谈之前，我确实想问你关于 [53:28.400]translating Lacan. There's a whole section in the book devoted to translation and there are [53:28.400]翻译拉康的事情。书中有一整节专门讨论翻译，也有 [53:33.400]interviews. So this will be a kind of maybe meta-commentary on those interviews. [53:33.400]一些访谈文章。因此，这可能是对这些采访的一种二次评论。（译注：Meta-commentary指的是二次评论,即对原有评论进行评论和讨论的行为。它往往强调的不是被评论对象本身,而是对评论过程、模式和结论进行梳理和剖析。属于评论的反思和批判层次。） [53:41.400] Okay, so I guess you're, this is what I want, you're asked by an interviewer in the book, it's something like, you know, [53:41.400]好，所以我想，这就是我想要的哈，在书中访谈人问你，大概是，你看哈， [53:45.400]given your demands of clarity for yourself and your students, how do you deal with Lacan's [53:45.400]是鉴于你对自己和学生的要求，你如何处理那些有关拉康 [53:53.400]impenetrability basically or his, what did the interviewer say, something about how he makes vagueness [53:53.400]基本上是不可理解的东西，或者就像对谈人说的，那些关于他将隐含、模糊、含混本身 [53:58.400]into a form of art or, so, and you were very modest and you say that, you know, you do what you can [53:58.400]变成一种艺术形式，或者，所以，你自己也很谦虚哈，你说，你尽你所能 [54:06.400]to make Lacan as clear as possible and try to understand him and not assume he's just gibberish. [54:06.400]要使拉康读起来尽可能清楚点儿，并试图去理解他，而不是认为他只是胡言乱语。 [54:11.400]He's when you don't say something, it's written some gibberish. So anyway, you also talk about how [54:11.400]不是什么胡说八道的东西。所以无论如何，你也谈起 [54:16.400]important it is though to convey, for you to convey the response of Lacan's text. So I guess, [54:16.400]对你来说重要的是传达、去翻译拉康文本所引起的效果。所以我想， [54:24.400]how do you negotiate that? I mean, do you have to sacrifice clarity for the sake of polyvalence [54:24.400]你如何商榷这点？我的意思是，你是否必须为了多元、多义的内容而牺牲掉清晰和透明 [54:31.400]or is it, I mean, can you have both or, what do you struggle with there? [54:31.400]或者，我的意思是，你能同时兼顾两者吗，或者，你在里面有什么纠结的？ [54:38.400]Right, I guess it depends somewhat on the text that I'm translating because some of them are more [54:38.400]好吧，我想这在某种程度上取决于我正在翻译的文本，因为其中一些更 [54:48.400]fun than others. Lacan is having more fun in some of them than in others. You know, in many cases [54:48.400]比别人有趣。拉康在其中的一些地方比在另一些地方玩得更开心。你知道，在很多情况下 [54:58.400]what I strive to do is to render something in such a way that I think it has the same power in [54:58.400]我努力做的是以一种我认为它具有相同力量和效果的方式来呈现某些东西， [55:07.400]English as it has in French, even if there are one or two other possible resonances in what he's [55:07.400]用英语表现得就像法语那样，即使在拉康的话里，其中还有一两处其他可能的寓意 [55:17.400]saying that aren't conveyed thereby. And that's when I'll indulge in footnotes to try to explain [55:17.400]没法通过翻译来传达。那时我会沉迷于脚注来尝试解释（译注：+1） [55:25.400]to readers who want to go a bit further and who maybe know some French, what other possible [55:25.400]给读者，他们对于那些想继续思考，也许是懂一些法语的读者，去思考还有什么其他可能 [55:31.400]resonances might be there and that I'm leaving out. I find that the better I know French and, [55:31.400]的内涵在里面，譬如我自己忽视的内容。我发现我越懂法语， [55:40.400]you know, I'm still working at it. It's been 30-some years, but I'm getting better. No, no, [55:40.400]你懂吧，我就越得努力去了解它。现在已经30多年了，而我也越发熟练。（俩人嘎嘎嘎笑笑） [55:48.400]yeah, I spend a lot of the year in France now and every year my French gets better and every year [55:48.400]喔，我现在一年中的大部分时间都在法国度过，每年我的法语都会变得更好 [55:55.400]I understand things that I didn't understand before. And I find that he's not as vague as I [55:55.400]我能理解以前不理解的事情。而且我发现他不像我有时候以为的那么含糊不明。 [56:03.400]sometimes think. And it's also that it's difficult, you know, the context is extremely important and [56:03.400]而且这也是困难的，你知道，语境非常重要， [56:12.400]things that for us are very vague are not so, we're not so vague perhaps for people who attended [56:12.400]对我们来说非常模糊的事情可能就不麻烦，也许对于参加过拉康课程和研讨的人来说， [56:18.400]the classes that he was giving, you know, the seminars in particular, cultural references at the [56:18.400]譬如他给人们上的那些课，你看，特别是那些研讨班，里面有对文化的参考， [56:25.400]time, historical references, you know, current events and so on. People knew what he was talking [56:25.400]有对历史的思考，你知道，还有时事内容等等。那会儿的人们还知道他在说什么 [56:32.400]about and we don't. And a lot of the people he was talking to were reading the same journals, [56:32.400]，而我们不行。和他交谈过的很多人都在读同样的日记， [56:37.400]the same psychoanalytic journals, and so they knew when an article by Blint came out and they had [56:37.400]同样的精神分析期刊，所以他们知道布林特的文章什么时候出来，他们也 [56:43.400]all read it too in the International Journal and so on. So I never read that stuff. You know, [56:43.400]已经在《国际杂志》等上面读到过。而我从来没有读过那些东西。你看吧， [56:50.400]I have to go back and read it and then sometimes things start, so a lot of things come into focus [56:50.400]我现在必须得反过头来去读它，然后经常就，阅读和翻译的工作开始了，所以很多事得去关注， [56:56.400]very slowly. And the more I've translated Lacan, the more I've found that, you know, it isn't [56:56.400]进度很缓慢。我翻译拉康的东西越多，我就越发现，你知道，它其实 [57:06.400]nearly as vague as it sometimes seemed, you know, on the first ten readings. [57:06.400]有时看起来并不模糊，譬如你看，那头十个读本。（嘎嘎嘎欢笑） [57:10.400]Also there are just many references that I have no clue how to even begin and thanks to your footnotes [57:10.400]还有许多参考资料，我甚至不知道如何开始，感谢你的脚注 [57:17.400]though I do, but you know, without the footnotes, I don't know. [57:17.400]虽然我知道，你看，没有脚注，我可读不懂。 [57:20.400]Yeah, and there are still plenty of others that, you know, that I've no doubt missed and that other [57:20.400]对呀，还有很多其他人，你知道，我无疑错过了，还有其他的人， [57:26.400]people, you know, especially people who were working around Lacan were well aware of and that [57:26.400]你知道，特别是在拉康身边工作的人很清楚，而 [57:34.400]I'll never be aware of. So, yeah, in terms of compromises, I think you always have to make [57:34.400]我永远也没法知道。所以，是的，考虑到要做出妥协，我认为你总是必须做出 [57:45.400]certain compromises obviously because the play on words, which seems more or less deliberate in the [57:45.400]某些妥协，也显然是因为文字游戏，这似乎或多或少是文本里故意而为的内容， [57:51.400]text, you know, you can't render, basically plays on words in another language unless you're really [57:51.400]你知道，你没法翻译，基本上是用另一种语言来琢磨字词，除非你真的走了 [57:58.400]lucky. And so you have to create something and, you know, imagine. And I'll just take an example [57:58.400]运，能翻好。所以你就必须创造一些东西，你看，就是指想象。我只举一个书里的例子 [58:10.400]from the book, right, I used as an interpretation once with a patient the phrase, "You don't know shit," [58:10.400]好吧，我曾经对一个病人用过一句话作为解释，“你懂个屁”。（译注：此处的shit是双关，shit在英文里面有非常丰富的内涵，此处涉及到患者个人的议题，与排泄、如厕、写作等等相关。） [58:16.400]right, and so this was a patient who was always afraid that somehow he didn't know his stuff [58:16.400]对吧，所以这是一个病人，他总是害怕他不知道他自己有什么、会什么， [58:23.400]when he got up to teach or he didn't know what he was saying when he was writing and who also had [58:23.400]譬如当他起床去教书时，又或者他不知道自己在写什么，况且谁也有 [58:28.400]all kinds of problems about, you know, going to the bathroom. And, you know, when I was looking at [58:28.400]关于上厕所的各种问题。而且，你知道，当我今天在看的时候， [58:38.400]that today before our interview, I was thinking, "How would I translate that into French?" And [58:38.400]在我们采访之前哈，我就想，“我该如何把它翻译成法语？” [58:44.400]there ain't no way. It is impossible. So, you know, you try to come up with something that might [58:44.400]其实没办法。翻不来。所以，你知道，你试图想出一些内容， [58:53.400]at least convey one of the meanings and then, you know, all you can do is drop a footnote and say [58:53.400]可能至少会传达其中一种含义，然后，你知道，你所能做的就是放一个脚注并说 [59:02.400]what the other one is or the other ones potentially are. But, you know, it's a series of compromises, [59:02.400]另一个别的东西是什么，或者另一个可能是什么。但是，你看，这就是种种妥协啊， [59:11.400]of course. [59:11.400]显而易见。 [59:12.400]It's a creative translation, it's a very creative process. People don't always see it that way, [59:12.400]这是一个要去创造、要去发挥的翻译工作，这是一个非常有创意的过程。而人们并不总是这样看， [59:18.400]I guess. [59:18.400]我觉着是。 [59:19.400]Yeah, I think it is a very creative process and I find that, for example, in the latest translation [59:19.400]对啊，我认为这是一个非常有创意的过程，例如，在最新的翻译中，我发现 [59:29.400]that I've done of Seminar 8 now that will be out next year with Polity Press, you know, I gave [59:29.400]我已经完成了研讨班8，明年将与Polity Press一起出版，你知道，我给了 [59:34.400]myself more liberties than I did in the Écrits . The Écrits was so damn difficult and my French [59:34.400]自己更多思考，要比在翻译《文集》时更自由、更轻松。Écrits可太难了，我的法语 [59:40.400]still wasn't as good as it is now and I think it's easier for me now to find, you know, different [59:40.400]仍然不如现在好，我认为我现在更容易找到不同的方式 [59:47.400]ways of saying it and to get out of the French grammar and so on. So, anyway, you'll let me know what you think. [59:47.400]去表达，并且摆脱法语的语法等等。所以，差不多就这样，你有啥意见就记得告诉我哈。 [59:56.400]Right, I can't wait. Well, listen, Bruce, we've taken up enough of your time. I'm hoping we'll [59:56.400]行啊，我等不及了。好吧，听着，布鲁斯，我们已经占用了你太多的时间。我希望我们会 [01:00:05.400]talk again. Maybe we'll be back in about a month to discuss Volume 2. [01:00:05.400]有机会继续聊的。也许我们会在大约一个月后回来讨论第 2 卷。 [01:00:10.400]That would be great. It's been a pleasure for me. [01:00:10.400]那可就太好了。我很荣幸哈。 [01:00:13.400]Oh, thank you so much again for doing this and thanks to our audience for listening. [01:00:13.400]要得（dei），再次很感谢你的参与，一并谢谢我们听众的聆听。 [01:00:18.400]Thanks, everyone. [01:00:18.400]谢谢大家。 [01:00:19.400]Thank you. [01:00:19.400]谢谢。 [01:00:20.400]Thank you. [01:00:20.400]谢谢。 （访谈链接：https://newbooksnetwork.com/bruce-fink-against-understanding-volume-1-commentary-and-critique-in-a-lacanian-key-routledge-2014-2）

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